castin'

Discuss surfcasting and and all other things related to surf fishing here.

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ken moran
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castin'

Post by ken moran » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:20 am

I have a tip which took me a long time and many tangles to learn! dont try for maximum distance off the beach with an overhead reel and bait on the hook, just throw it far enough to catch fish and be done with it.

Bait seems to play have with the casting/backlash.

John Softly
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Post by John Softly » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:02 pm

Ken,
You do not have to compromise distance when surfcasting with an overhead. Your reel must be tuned and made to suit your casting style by either or all of the following methods:- the correct viscosity oil in the bearings, the correct brake blocks fitted, the correct diameter line for the size of spool and the level of line on the spool. For instance to slow a spool down you need to use a higher viscosity oil in the bearings and/or use larger brake blocks and /or go to a larger diameter line (0.35mm is normal for a 6000 size spool - go to 0.40mm) and/or use less line on the spool.
First of all the reel must be tuned and you can find this information at:-
http://www.fishingmonthly.com.au/softly/reeltuning.html
The reel being demonstrated is a 6500 CT Mag Elite and magnetic controlled reels are easier to control when changing baits or when weather conditions change. For instance if you are changing from a worm to a pilchard more braking power has to be applied due to the less aerodynamic shape of the pilchard even though both baits may be clipped down.
Rod Bolton does a very nice after market magnetic kit for 6000 size ABU's.
http://www.fishingmonthly.com.au/softly ... rsion.html
This was the first of Rod's conversion kits and is based on the Mag Elite system. However he has an upgrade which is a single magnet similar to the Penn 525 Mag and is the only conversion which allows the line out alarm to function. He also makes a kit for the removal of the level wind - making a CS reel into a CT. (Rodney post your updated images)
Advice given in the last issue of QFM regarding the screwing down of the 'cast control' knob in order to slow the spool down is way off line. The ABU ultracast system has bearings in either side of the spool cavity and by tightning up the 'cast control' knob only places undue pressure on the bearings. Use the knobs either side of the reel (on a classic model) to centre the spool. On both the classic model and the palming model the spool has to float and needs to have slight lateral movement. Push the spool back and forth laterally and play with the end knobs untill you feel the slightest knock. You are now at a position where there is no pressure on the bearings. I only screw down the cast control in Daiwa 7HT's, 6HM's and SLOSH's and Calcutta 400S and then only in an emergency.
I am fully aware what ABU says in their instruction manuals but we are using the reel meant for short distance cast and retrieve to cast heavy weights long distances and at the moment of release on a 100 metre power cast the spool goes from stationary to 40,000 RPM within a fraction of a second. Removal of the levelwind will increase distances sightly but the main advantage is that the top bar is also removed which exposes a much greater area of the spool for a thumb grip. A strong bar has to replace the level wind assembly and be in place prior to the removal of the top bar.
Once tuned correctly an ABU 6000/6000c/6500c will cast a 90/125/150 gram sinker and bait 100 metres plus without the need to touch the spool until splash down and with no backlashes. The group of guys I fish with all use overheads and a backlash is an unusual occurance - even in the dark.
Cheers
John

emaze
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Post by emaze » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:30 pm

I think one of the nicest and smoothest casting reels is to be found in the old Penn Squidder 140, with dual ball races, air vanes on the spool/end case, good gearing and a very nice drag.

As old as these reels are, they fish just as well as the latest "u-bute" titanium/composite carbon/magnetic braked offerings, but pehaps I'me just a bit biased and cant let go of the past!

But I do get a heap of enjoyment out of my old gear!

eeezie casting, :) emaze
still doing what I was doing - and enjoying it

John Softly
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Post by John Softly » Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:03 pm

emaze,
I grew up with Penn Surfmasters and Beachmasters and Mitchell 602A's - all good reels in their time but they have their limitations. They didn't have aluminuim spools(you can't mag them), any braking system and, by todays standards, they are painfully slow. Even the ABU 6000c is still a serviceable reel and has centrufugal brakes but the drag is basic and it lacks speed. It is certainly a better build that today's ABU's. I will, occasionally go 'back to the future' with Fenwick Surfstiks and Davenport and Fordham rods of the 60's but they will have ABU Mag Elites and Penn 525 Mag's on their coasters. They still cast well but are no match for the current Zziplex's and Conoflex's and Century's. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be!
Penn Jigmasters and Squidders had aluminium spools available and are canditates for conversion to magnetic reels.
I like to reach the outer edge of the gutter with as little effort as possible!
Cheers
John

Ian Cameron
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Post by Ian Cameron » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:05 pm

Emaze,
I'm with you. The old squidder was a great beach reel, bit too slow for the rocks but at least it had a reasonably adequate line capacity. I still use a couple of 30 year old abu 9000's as first choice weapons as the little reels have a totally inadequate line capacity for both bigger fish and to maintain a quick retrieval rate after a long cast. The pommy rods are certainly a generation ahead for casting but their weight and rigidity requires passive fishing techniques such as tripods which in my experience means missed bites and fish. There is certainly a bit to be said for some of the old tried and proven methods whilst still keeping an eye on the benefits of new ideas and technology. Don't know how we did it before the breakaway sinkers arrived for example.

Ian

Rod B
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Magged reel images by popular request

Post by Rod B » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:56 pm

Hi, these are some pics of the conversion as it presently exists. The other version John refered to (Red 6000 reel) has been chalked up to experience. This version is much easier for a DIY installation. Plus no functions on the reel are lost.

Image

Image

The last image shows the magnet fitted with the levelwind and clicker in place. This mod' will ONLY fit the palming style reels with the curved clicker side, side cover. It will fit right and lefthand versions of the 4xxx, 5xxx, and 6xxx size reels.

Image

If any one wants more info feel free to contact me.
Rod.

ken moran
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Post by ken moran » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:17 am

Thanks for the help there, I may have been not my usual rip-tear-and bust self when I did the email. A bell rang when I read the sinker size, my sinker was way smaller and that would not help, and this reel has never had brake blocks on it, I was hoping to rely on the new fangled magnets! The part (no.22567) that holds the brake blocks on has very small legs on it and the few blocks I have got for it have appeared to be tiny bits of perished rubber tube that would not go on to the leg. So I changed it for one off the older reel and put white blocks on it.

The distance I spoke of was not too bad on reflection, of course I could not measure it but it was still past where most older fishermen tell me the fish are. I was sort of trying to catch a few fish rather than set a distance record everytime I cast and spend my day gettign tangles out.

But this is where I get my backlashes, not at the very start of the cast, often is has gone most of the distance it is going to go, then I hear and feel the line on the spool playing up and it starts to tangle, as if the spool is not slowing down when the sinker is slowing down (or somehow not pulling the line away from the spool)

John, whats the bit about not being able to mag a non aluminium spool, I'm not saying it's incorrect, at first I could not understand why non ferous stuff would be affected by a magnet, but does it have to be aluminium before the eddy currents effect the spool ?

I just went and checked my line :oops: the stuff on the spool is 15lb (.040mm) and the new line ready to go on next is 12lb(.035mm) I didn't notice that! so depending on the advice forthcoming, I may see if I can change it.

John Softly
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Post by John Softly » Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:10 pm

Ken,
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - you can only do a magnetic conversion on reels with aluminium spools.
Here is an extract from an article I did for Saltwater Sport Fishing on the subject:-

"The introduction of neodymium rare earth magnets have opened up new horizons in the area of overhead reels. Magnetic control is not a recent innovation and was first incorporated into an Ocean City reel called the ‘Inductor’ in the late thirties. The reel used a device patented by an American, Bob Ransom, which used Alnico magnets face to face with a copper disc underneath which was a steel plate which acted as a revolving flux path. The air space between the magnets and the copper disc could be varied, at will by means of an adjusting lever. This eddy current brake was the fore runner of many reels utilising the same principle.

Image

This principle is used today on aluminium spooled reels like the Penn 525 Mag and the Abu Mag Elites and the fact that aluminium is not magnetic can lead to confusion. It was explained to me recently in a somewhat novel way.
There are four small magnets sitting in their housing with their poles positioned NSNS. (If they are removed from a reel, during service, they have to be replaced in a NSNS configuration). There they sit, in equilibrium, producing their magnetic field, and all is well with their world. Suddenly the adjacent aluminium spool starts to rotate and upsets the magnetic field and they fight to regain their equilibrium. The faster the spool passes their field and the nearer they are to the spool the greater they fight to regain a state of flux and an eddy current is produced which slows the spool.
The scientific explanation of the eddy current principle is so involved that I’m lost after the second paragraph but the mental picture of little magnets fighting to slow the spool is suited to my intellect.
There is a current trend amongst American surf-casters of adapting the older type reels, which, originally, had no way of controlling the spool apart from high viscosity oil in the bearings/bushes, to magnetic control. As long as it has an aluminium spool, or an aluminium spool can be purchased to fit, and there room in the left side plate to fit a small magnet, then it is a prime candidate for magnetic adaptation. ABEC bearings are also being fitted to replace original bearings and bushes - but that’s another story.
Reels like the Penn Jig Masters, Penn Squidders, and even the 113 and 114 special Senator’s have been given a new lease of life. In it’s simplest form, with a non adjustable magnet, the cost of converting a Penn Jigmaster to mag control is 85 cents (American). I reckon it would cost us about $5!
Much is happening in the word of overheads and magnetic control and I know for a fact the whole Penn GS series (535, 545, and 555) have prototypes in the field with similar magnetic controls incorporated as are in the 525 Mag"

You didn't mention what model Abu you had but there is no necessity to use 2 brake blocks - 1 will do - it won't put the spool off balance.
I am not entirely convinced that the "older fishermen" are correct as to where the fish are. Most tailor are caught within 50 yards of the shore because thats where most fishermen cast their bait. Every big tailor (in excess of 5 kilos) I have caught was hooked at distance. I fish 2 rods, one at distance and the other close in
Cheers
John

ken moran
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Right

Post by ken moran » Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:11 pm

Thanks, now it's clear.

Some of the older spools could do with somebody capable of fashioning an aluminium disc and then epoxy it to the end of the spool. Then they could have a mag conversion done.

When you say nsns, would you stack the magnets on top of each other, so the attract themselves in a stack, and put them into the spool in that order or turn every second one around?

Ken

Rod B
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Post by Rod B » Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:24 pm

Making an aluminium disc and fixing/glueing it to the spool is the easy bit.
When its done it has to be in balance (like a car wheel) and run true and flat in relation to the magnet, otherwise at the speed the spool rotates at the start of a cast the whole set up could/will shake apart.

The NSNS setup for the magnets is when they are mounted side by side. This gives the maximum braking effect. Fine tuning is done by setting NNNS (SSSN) or removing one or two. Doesn't matter if more N or S poles are 'up'. The poles have the same magnetic strength.

Think about it, stacked up you would have a job fitting them in. :lol:

Rod.
Last edited by Rod B on Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

John Softly
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Post by John Softly » Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:30 pm

Ken,
NSNS or SNSN in a row of small magnets as in the Mag Elte or the 525 slidey. Knobby reels and conversions usually use one big magnet.
The Americans have tried the aluminium stuck to the side of the spool but with little success. This was done on Newell reels.
Your experience of the over run occuring at the end of the cast is unusual as it is usually at the begining where the frap occures. Tournament casters wind the magnets off three quarters through the cast for more distance. Could be that you need a heavier sinker and/or a rod capable of handling 125 to 150 grams. I use a carp rod that will handle 60 to 125 grams in conjunction with a Mag Elite 5500 spooled with 150 yards of 0.28mm line backed with 800 yards of 12lb test braid. Water pressure will snap the line before I get spooled!!!!!
Cheers
John

ken moran
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lucky last

Post by ken moran » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:41 am

One more try at the magnets layout. (Abu 6500 mag elite)

If I take my magnets out and hold them together, they snap together in a short stack, like this; [ ]
[ ]
[ ]
[ ] and the holes are like this:
O O O O O O

To put them back in again, I just put the bottom magnet in the first hole and move the stack toward the next hole, wiping the magnet off the bottom, then put the next magnet in the next hole and wipe it off the bottom of the stack as I slide the stack towards the next hole and so on.

OR after putting the first one in, do I pull the next one off the bottom of the stack and turn it over before I put it in the next hole and then put the next one in normally, then turn the next one over ?

There does seem to be some difference in the spinning of the reel with the inverting method providing the most braking effect.

Which would be the factory method? If anyone is going to buy one of these, consider marking them with a texta.

Next time I buy one of these reels, I'll mark the magnets uppermost surface with texta colour!!!!

John Softly
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Post by John Softly » Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:26 pm

Ken,
The inverting method is the correct one which works OK if you have a stack of magnets. Never assume that the factory got it right placing the poles in the correct sequence; invariably Penn 525 slideys will have the poles all over the place.
Here's what I have always done. Get a piece of polystyrene about 1.5 cm square and 5 to 10 mm thick. Make a small lengthways inscision in the polystyrene and place a magnet, on edge in the incision, fill a saucer with water and place the polystyrene in the water. The north pole of the magnet will swing to face north. Then mark it with a marker. Trouble is that I have yet to find a marker that is permanent on the surface of a magnet. They all rub off. Older, thicker small magnets did have north marked on them with a small indentation and I thought that a centre punch would mark the neodymiums. Do not do it. They shatter into a thousand pieces.
Anyone got any ideas for a quick fix?

Image

Image

Cheers
John

Rod B
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Post by Rod B » Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:56 pm

Knowing which pole is which on the magnets is getting into too much detail I am thinking, that degree of detail is not required in this application.
If you stack the magnets and then mark either the top surface or bottom surface, of each magnet, as you dismantle the stack. That's all you need to do/know.
When you install them in the reel, place the magnets with the marks alternating ^ v ^ v. Now you see a mark, now you don't, Now you see a mark, now you don't.
When installing more than one magnet, alternate the marks for maximum braking effect.
For marking the magnets I use a 'Nikko' type permanent marker. Colour to use is your choice :lol:
Rod.

John Softly
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Post by John Softly » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:32 pm

Rod,
The chrome finish of neodymiums ensures that the mark of a nikko won't stay there very long. I have resorted to a dab of orange paint.
I only use 3 magnets in the mag elite 65 and 5500's but add an extra 2 in the Penn 525 knobby.
News to hand has it that Daiwa are upgrading their 7ht and are also looking at a mag version of the reel. At present is is a good workhorse reel and the two different size bearings on the spool shaft make it very user friendly. A mag version would certainly give Abu a run for their money. It won't be available outside UK of course!
Cheers
John

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