ABT BREAM 2012

This is the place to discuss all matters relating to BREAM fishing and tournaments.

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Dodgyback
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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by Dodgyback » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:52 pm

Nuzzy
ABT don't run the teams events, they are run by the organisers them selves be it Gama or Bets.

All I can say is there are far too many comps about and something had to give and unfortunatly is was the individual comps .With this in mind I hope the organisers of the team events don't flood the calendar with events , That will just see thier numbers drop aswell.
Many of us are time poor, and we can't get to all of them. I'm even missing the Gama at the Clarence next week !! Now that hurts !
I still hate Flathead

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by nuzzy » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:06 pm

Dodgy, i know they don't run the teams events but they are still affiliated with them, the BETS and GTS series are much the same as the Classics in the other states, they are listed on the ABT website and they still post the results there and these comps seem to be the reason the ABT are cutting back their individual events.

My first ever comp was an ABT qualifier, if it wasn't for that then i would have never have met all the guys i know now and subsequently wouldn't be involved in the sport as i am now. While the teams events are great and seem to be booming in NSW, i believe there is still very much a need to have to individual events on offer (more than 1 a year) to get the new people into the sport as non-boaters.

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by Dell » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:33 pm

I enjoy both formats of comps but personally prefer fishing the single events. It's just something about the challenge of catching your own bag of 5 that attracts me more than a shared 5. We can all go out in a team comp (GF included) and catch 3 fish each, have a bag and have a cracker of a day. Where if you only caught 3 fish in a single comp you probably wouldn't be up there. It really does seperate the anglers that standout on the day.
With the drop in individual events next yr I can see the competitiveness pick up and see alot of NBs getting back boated. What i'm thinking is NBs fish one day and boaters both. Or if you're running these comps cheaper why not shaft the non boaters completely? Because of the cheaper price more NBs may possibly take the plunge and step up to a boater? (This would be a step forward for the future) From what i've read there's more than enough team comps for non boaters to fish. Run the abt comps as boaters only or NBs one day and see what happens. A good example would be the Australian Open this year. It was a single angler event, Entries were still up and seemed to be pretty successful.

Alternatively give the format suggested a go but keep the super series and run them as a boater only comp. I see where abt is coming from, but with Kayak comps and flattie comps now the drop in individual tournaments only seems like a backwards step for the sport.

Just my 2 cents worth.

cheers

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by TSlats » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:01 pm

Dell wrote:I enjoy both formats of comps but personally prefer fishing the single events. It's just something about the challenge of catching your own bag of 5 that attracts me more than a shared 5. We can all go out in a team comp (GF included) and catch 3 fish each, have a bag and have a cracker of a day. Where if you only caught 3 fish in a single comp you probably wouldn't be up there. It really does seperate the anglers that standout on the day.
With the drop in individual events next yr I can see the competitiveness pick up and see alot of NBs getting back boated. What i'm thinking is NBs fish one day and boaters both. Or if you're running these comps cheaper why not shaft the non boaters completely? Because of the cheaper price more NBs may possibly take the plunge and step up to a boater? (This would be a step forward for the future) From what i've read there's more than enough team comps for non boaters to fish. Run the abt comps as boaters only or NBs one day and see what happens. A good example would be the Australian Open this year. It was a single angler event, Entries were still up and seemed to be pretty successful.

Alternatively give the format suggested a go but keep the super series and run them as a boater only comp. I see where abt is coming from, but with Kayak comps and flattie comps now the drop in individual tournaments only seems like a backwards step for the sport.

Just my 2 cents worth.

cheers
Dell makes a good point here
Being a NB myself at this stage. If the qualifiers were cheaper than they are now (say 200ish) and Boater only comps. I would step up and enter them as a boater.
Something to think about possibly.

There is merit to a few more boater only comps (rethink super series) and keep the Boater/NB format for some.

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by Adventure » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:13 pm

There is alot of interesting comments being made ..so its good food for thought for ABT to consider.

I personaly think that making any team events 10 Fish will be alot better and puts a wider gap between bags and gives two anglers a target of 10 fish making it more interesting.

Sticking to a per state AOY base will make if alot fairer then a national one for the average angler and not rewarding the Rich that can afford to travel the country fishing every event that seems pointless and maybe can be changed to RAOY :lol: .

Also on the AOY points system and the amount that get to be participants in the GF i feel if they didnt make it through a Qualifier they probably shouldn't be in the running in the GF stick to Qualifiers only makes more sense to me same as the amount that get through to the AFC .
And people that comment on NSW getting more Comps etc probably comes down to that simple Fact that the Anglers are there to enter but i feel atleast 2 Qualifiers per state is more like it .

((Plus an extra qualifier in the state with the GF for that year. Therefore an extra one for Qld in 2012 and an extra one for Vic in 2013.))

2012 will see QLD and NSW both get two Tournaments compared to the other states with only one if this New format goes ahead which is a real let down the the future growth of the Sport .
Non boaters are the future and without the chances to get more New people involed only leaves fewer anglers in future comps .....there are no flathead comps and SS next year now the drop in BREAM Qualifiers nationally seems like the growth took a massive backwards turn heading into 2012 ..
You will never ever Know .. if you never ever Go !!

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by adamward » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:24 pm

Steve,

I think you're on the right track and are taking on board what alot of guys have been saying this year. ie. higher entry fees = less anglers = payouts the same for a superseries over 4 days as a normal weekend qualifier. Why bother if you have to take extra days off work thru the week. A normal comp is generally $1000 for the weekend if you're traveling and don't get me started on lost income if you work for yourself as many regulars do. I personally don't want to see a reduction in the number of qualifing events, just scrap the superseries comps and watch the numbers go back up to what they use to be. Don't get me wrong, the superseries events are a great idea and it's a great feeling to be fishing on the final day of one but in the current economic climate many of us can't justify the time off work or time away from young famalies etc. I'd love to see it get as big as America but until some corporate big guys start providing the boys with cars, boats and a regular wage then it's never going to happen. I realize it's getting harder to compete with some one day teams events with great sponsor support but I too believe that many people still regard the ABT format of boater against fellow boater to be the proving ground if you want to really challenge yourself. Saying that I still enjoy the teams format and will continue to fish both series but don't think you should limit the qualifiers too much. As Matt Frazer said, don't forget to have a great weekend away fishing while were all trying to win. Just my thoughts. Adam.
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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by roosterman » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:21 pm

dell if you shaft the non boaters as you put it how much of a payout do you think you will be getting.dont forget that non boater entry fee is part of the payout to boaters,nonies dont get money.id like to see the non boater aoy get a fish on a stick after putting in the effort to compete.

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by rrumbles » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:58 pm

Just from reading comments,time and money are main topics,has the abt ever looked at one day individual comps?

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by Dell » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:59 pm

roosterman wrote:dell if you shaft the non boaters as you put it how much of a payout do you think you will be getting.dont forget that non boater entry fee is part of the payout to boaters,nonies dont get money.id like to see the non boater aoy get a fish on a stick after putting in the effort to compete.
If you add up the payouts for the recent GC super series you will find that the combined total of boater entry fees totally covers the prize money given out to the top 10 place getters.

First of all I have no idea what costs are involved in running a comp or what system is used with payouts but this is just an idea.
Here's an example for the format I suggested. With a field of 35 anglers in a boater only comp with $200 entry you get $7000. Some of this will most likely go to ABT to cover staff for the wknd + other things (sponsors most likely throw something in towards costs also?). so lets just say $6000 prize money give or take.

Be aware that not every comp pays down to 10th and alot of them down to about 6th or 7th with 8th - 10th walking away with nothing (more anglers or Higher entry if a SS will equal more prize money n pay down further of course)
Top 5 anglers will most likely win money and since there's no NB's the remainding few anglers down to 7th or all the way to 10th can get sponsor prizes and walk away with something (alot of the time the 1st, 2nd place NBs will get prize packs worth more than 6th and 7th place boaters)

i.e.

$5500 + $500 for big bream = $6000
1st place: $2300
2nd place: $1100
3rd place: $900
4th place: $700
5th place: $500
6th: Sponsor prizes
7th Sponsor prizes
etc

Like I said I don't know what costs are involved in a comp or how the abt system for payouts works but this is just a simple idea.

cheers

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by Matt Fraser » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:51 pm

Steve, you wrote

"One thing that I'd like to comment on is that there's no 'us' and 'them' when it comes to ABT random draw events and teams events."

There is an "us" and "them" when it comes to sponsorship dollars, and the teams series are taking a fair slab of sponsorship dollars and product away from ABT Bream Qualifiers, because sponsors believe they are getting better value for money at teams events.

Teams events are getting bigger fields and new blood into the sport and heaps of coverage. The ABT Bream Qualifiers have been going backwards for several years now. You've got to stop thinking about the top ten percent of the sport only.

As many anglers have commented here, they would like to do more qualifiers, either as boaters or non-boaters but the teams events are the only events they can afford to do, plus they are fun. When its going to cost you a grand for the weekend, the only time it's fun is if you win!

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by cannonball » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:50 am

There seems to be an underlying factor here and that is the cost of this sport we play. It is a seriously expensive hobby/sport. No matter what the cost involved people will whinge about the price. BREAMERS ARE WHINGERS. Look at the bass guys they get abt fields over 60 competitors each time in the hunter valley bass rounds and the majority of the people who compete are queenslanders who travel up to 15 hours to get there and never complain once. fields seem to be getting larger and larger. This year alot of NSW people travelled to queensland to compete. Most travelled between 10-15 hours to get there. All these guys had to budget to go, sacrifice time away and so on. It seems to me that it is only the breamers who do all the whinging about cost, travel and so on. If you cannot afford to do it then budget until you can. The Abt put the show on alot at their own expense so you can have the opportunity to compete against each other on an individual level. I am so grateful at having that opportunity to compete against the best and win some good cash and have a chance to win a 40k boat in a grand final. The bass guys compete for a 5k trip to america in their final. Seeing that the bass guys pull the big fields travel the furthest to get there why not make the basscat boat the prize for the bass grand final prize. The other option is we can make all bream events two bob to enter. On the briefing night we will give out a stubby holder. The reason for this is that when you win the comp on sunday and the prizemoney is the equivalent of 2 stubbies of beer (3 stubbies for a super series) at least you can keep it cool with a free stubby cooler. Never heard a competitor ever whinge about the price a beer on briefing night and never heard anybody complain about entry fees with a winners cheque in their hand. Cheers REEDY

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by Bruce Anderson » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:39 am

Well said Cannonball.

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by Drewy » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:23 am

Its a bit of a generalisation.

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by nathanl » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:53 pm

Steve Morgan wrote: I can't understand the logic, though, of saying that if you can't have the choice of more events, then you're not going to do any at all. Is it just me that thinks that's illogical?

If I was a local angler and didn't want to travel that much, I now have a selection of ABT affiliated BREAM Classics to fish - Gamakatsu Teams Series, BETS, The Gold Coast SFC Classics, The Port Mac and Sydney Classics,BETS, the Vic BREAM Classics, the Tas Classics, SABT and the WA BREAM Classics. Then, once a year, I get to try myself out as an individual when the ABT Qualifier comes to my state.
Hi Steve,

I can only explain my logic as it applied to me as I wrote my post. I dont own a comp ready boat so cant put a shout out for a partner/mate to fish teams events. To tee up a partner with a boat to fish teams events I will have to find one that is willing to accept that I cant always commit to every event in every series, if I cant find one then that only leaves me individual events. To be honest I really enjoyed my first season non boating and will more than likely make the effort to travel further to events but I just wanted to point out that not everyone is fishing all the teams events, some of us rely on the individual events to get their comp fix.

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by fire blood » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:18 pm

Bream electrics????
Just an idea.
Be easy to have one at say Forster lakes launch at Tiona, somewhere in lake mac, perhaps Narrabeen Lakes. Places that have little or no current. Just a thought. I wouldv thought entries would be big for something like that.
Dan Walter

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by Secret Squirrel » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:36 pm

I think it's good that ABT are reacting to the current climate- you need to evolve with the times but I can understand the disappointment from the guys that fish at the highest level.

I personally reckon that while people are watching their $$$ more, the sheer number of single day team events are completely to blame... I checked out my calendar and found that I fished something like 18 events in the first half of this year and that was with the only single angler event being the Aus Open. In NSW if you chose to fish the BETS series, some of the Gama rounds, and ABT Classic and the 8 rounds of the Squidgy Southern Bream series plus grand finals it doesn't leave much time for the family- then add the single ABT events... A Saturday night away is much easier to sell to the Mrs!

I've noticed that by the time most people can afford to buy the boat and stuff to properly fish these comps they're already at young family age and trying to balance this sort of fishing commitment with family and work can only end one way...

I think that most people would have to agree that the teams events are 1000 times easier to fish- most of the time you can drive overnight to them meaning less time away from family, costs are shared and you've got someone to blame when you do crap:) That's why we saw some 100+ boat fields in team events this year and I'm sure this has been a sign for ABT and they have seen this and reacted accordingly.

LP

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by pc1 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:00 pm

Secret Squirrel wrote:I think it's good that ABT are reacting to the current climate- you need to evolve with the times but I can understand the disappointment from the guys that fish at the highest level.

I personally reckon that while people are watching their $$$ more, the sheer number of single day team events are completely to blame... I checked out my calendar and found that I fished something like 18 events in the first half of this year and that was with the only single angler event being the Aus Open. I think that most people would have to agree that the teams events are 1000 times easier to fish- most of the time you can drive overnight to them meaning less time away from family, costs are shared and you've got someone to blame when you do crap:) That's why we saw some 100+ boat fields in team events this year and I'm sure this has been a sign for ABT and they have seen this and reacted accordingly.

LP
I have to agree with Secret Squirrel. When I started fishing comps in 2008 the Berkley Summer Series filled a gap in the tournament calender as did Minibucks, similar to what Dash for Cash does now. But in the last 2 years BETS and GAMATSU have expanded so much that in my opinion they are detracting from ABT individual events in a major way. Personally I view teams events as a bit like watching the doubles in tennis ( its a bit of fun but who really cares or remembers who won!) Still I understand, as Secret Squirrel has pointed out, how they are attracting the larger fields - easier access, bigger payouts, greater sponsorship/promotion etc. I think ABT are doing their best to manage their way through a difficult environment, and hopefully the changes proposed for next year will assist because without ABT it would be like watching Wimbledon without a men's singles championship. Teams events in my opinion are ( and I believe originally were) best designed as a means of introducing newcomers to the sport without the pressure or expense of a full blown ABT comp. I believe for the sport to prosper, it needs to have a strong ABT as its flagship. Steve's opening comment about the growing popularity of teams events, I think, says a lot in what is driving the reduction in ABT events for 2012 - after all, its no use putting on events if anglers don't support them.

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by marktheraider » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:41 pm

i think the opportunity for new fishos to the bream scene like myself to fish with the greats of fishing like the dizzy borgs, the morgans, babs ect has been greatly reduced.
i have started to get into bream comps and the opportunity to fish with the elite of bream fishing as a non boater seems to be getting less realistic with this format.
new non boaters want to fish with the best boaters to learn and see how and what it takes to make it as a boater.
without the non boater setup the next gen of boaters is not going to come thru.
i was going to join the ABT this year to fish 2 or 3 comps as a non boater but in reality i only have the chance to fish maybe one. And with the price of joining the abt it simply isnt worth it.
team comps like the gamakatsu which im am fishing this year with a good mate are great, but the opportunity to learn and better myself with a pro as a non boater seem to be dimishing.
hopefully i get that chance with the slim ammount of comps for me and i can learn and kick on to the boater stage of my bream comp career.

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by marktheraider » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:44 pm

i think the opportunity for new fishos to the bream scene like myself to fish with the greats of fishing like the dizzy borgs, the morgans, babs ect has been greatly reduced.
i have started to get into bream comps and the opportunity to fish with the elite of bream fishing as a non boater seems to be getting less realistic with this format.
new non boaters want to fish with the best boaters to learn and see how and what it takes to make it as a boater.
without the non boater setup the next gen of boaters is not going to come thru.
i was going to join the ABT this year to fish 2 or 3 comps as a non boater but in reality i only have the chance to fish maybe one. And with the price of joining the abt it simply isnt worth it.
team comps like the gamakatsu which im am fishing this year with a good mate are great, but the opportunity to learn and better myself with a pro as a non boater seem to be dimishing.
hopefully i get that chance with the slim ammount of comps for me and i can learn and kick on to the boater stage of my bream comp career.

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by DaveW » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:36 pm

Love to hear from sponsors about where they get the best bang for buck, individual or teams events.

Logically, if I do well at an an ABT qualifier it equals exposure for Dave Welfare (I'm pretty much not including what gets said at the presentation or weigh-ins about gear used, the same group of anglers that hang around at every event are pretty much dedicated to using their own sponsors products, and the occasional grey nomad that watches isn't exactly the target market).

If our team does well the team name (therefore the sponsor) gets the exposure.

I know where I'd put my dollars, especially with the ever increasing participation rates of teams events.

After this year, I've invested in some 'I told you so' hats and 'Welfare was right' T-Shirts, they're both part of my new angler tournament wear range 8) :P
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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by Matt Fraser » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:43 am

Can I order one of those hats Dave?

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by pc1 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:54 pm

[quote="DaveW"]Love to hear from sponsors about where they get the best bang for buck, individual or teams events.

To be honest Dave I don't think theres much difference as both reach an exceedingly small audience - in my view the only thing that reaches the mass market effectively is the televised AFC series. I say this because in over 30 years of competitive fishing I had never heard of ABT or any bream luring competitions - it was only as a result of the TV show that I became aware of the sport, despite the fact that I regularly attended the local boat shows and was obviously involved in fishing! Thousands of Australians, especially young kids interested in fishing, would know who Tim The Bream Morgan and Darren Dizzy Borg are, not because they've won heaps of ABT events (which they have) but because they're on TV.-who would know anyone who won a teams event? Teams events and qualifiers are comparatively ineffective as a promotional tool because they really only reach the already converted and as you say a few grey nomads passing through! There is not much real spectator value in a weigh in, live-streamed or otherwise, and obviously the fishing is off limits to spectators. AFC on the other hand adds much needed glamour and hype which captures the best moments, removes all the mundane stuff, and reaches an unlimited audience of people who would never go to a weigh in. The other point with the AFC is that it is able to convey some degree of credibility in terms of being a National Championship qualified for by competitors fishing against the best through the ABT qualifier events which is infinitely more interesting than a product driven event. I believe Berkley, Squidgy,Gamakatsu etc have sold more product as a result of AFC than all of the individual or teams series combined. Websites,Magazines, Facebook and Youtube reports again really only reach the already converted - they are camparatively ineffective in bringing new people to the sport or inspiring young kids. I think Steve has already mentioned that the AFC is really the only meaningful degree of personal recognition that is available and I agree with him 100% on that. So to me a strong ABT plus televised AFC equals an audience of thousands, a growing sport and great bang for the sponsors bucks - a weak ABT and no televised AFC means a limited audience, a declining sport and limited bang for the sponsors bucks - might as well get a T-Shirt printed lol!

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by mango » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:15 pm

Dave W congratulations on your 300 th post, a true mile stone in anyones posting career. The Dave W shirts you mention, are they the same as the ones you had done for the Forster GF many years ago. They were great but you had to be a family member to get one, I remember them well they had a big picture of you on the back. I think ABT has one on the wall in the office, they throw darts at it..................along with mine............you know who I have a picture of in my garage. Thats right that cute Cod fisho.

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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by dizzzy » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:36 pm

lots of people with limited posts making comment here. would be nice if they signed there name so we all know who you are and can take your opinion seriously.
its interesting to see what is writen on this board 90% of the time in these end of year discussions is not what is discussed at the tournements amongst the anglers.
maybe ABT has been listening to the wrong people.
it costs me $15-$20,000 plus a year to compete at this level. not including fishing gear.
i am lucky enough to have some great sponsors that help with costs but i still spend $15,000 a year.
i dont own a boat because if i buy one then i have no money to do tournaments. so i get the use of the TT boat and with out that i would not be fishing.
not shore how the realy good young fishos can get into the tournament when most of us that are already there are struggaling to keep fishing.
now just for those that think the AFC is the be all and end all of tournament fishing.
In the past AFC covered all our costs and payed us a small amount for our time. not the tens of thousands of dollars that most people think we get.
Been asked the question about how much i make doing the AFC many times at tournaments and everyones respons is the same.
Now we are doing AFC with no payment and taking time off work that is now costing us. why because we love fishing at the top level and to support our sponsors.
so for all those that aspiar to be in the AFC start saving you will need the dollars to make it. especial now with less tournaments and more travel.
but if you do make it you will have a great journy to get there, i did.
now for those that think we should be like the USA, no no no no. will never happen.
we are in Australia and our industry is far to small to support pro anglers that spend all there time fishing tournaments.
we will always need to work to earn the coin to go tournament fishing on the weekends
we need to develop tournaments that give the aussie spirit ago. you know you can do anything you want in this country, you just have to have ago.
so big payout tournament will probably never happen here, not enough sponsorship money or anglers with big entry fee money to make it happen.
i hope we can have a big payout tournament one day but reality is the chaces are slim.
so we need to look at what the average angler needs, after all the angler is the customer for ABT because with out the anglers there are no tournaments.
more oppertunity to fish at a higher indervidual level is what i am hearing. more tournament means more oppertunities.
If we look back to when we had $100-200 entry fees we had feilds of 60-70 plus anglers, now we have $400 entry fees and fields of 20-30 anglers.
big fields with low entry fees have just as good a pay out as the big entry fee comps with small fields.
maybe we need to return to low entry fees and make it possible for the guys that want to see if they are able to compete to try, this is the new blood we have not had for a few years now.
If there are still anglers that want more money let them option up and let the rest of us have fun and enjoy our tournament fishing without the huge cost to enter.
Dizzy.
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Re: ABT BREAM 2012

Post by Dodgyback » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:02 am

After reading the many remarks about the change to next years ABT ,I can very much see both sides of the story, but will continue to fish the ABT events regardless ,because I like the format.

One thing has really confused me. Over the last couple of years I 've heard of guys wanting a greater prize pool /payback figure. The only way to achieve that was to put up th entry costs , Now that the entry costs are up guys are now saying it's too dear.??
You can't have it both ways.

Tournament fishing is an expensive past time. Perhaps it comes down to being selective of what comps you do.
I still hate Flathead

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