New Measuring System for BREAM Events

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Will Lee
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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Will Lee » Sat May 29, 2010 4:45 pm

I'm all for the tip length rule. I fished the Tweed River this morning and caught three fish that all just scraped in at 23cm to the fork and put the theory to the test and as it turned out they all scraped in at 26cm to the tip. They were the three biggest fish that I caught all morning. Now if I was a newbie to the tournament scene, I would much rather have 3/5 next to my name than 0/5. There is nothing worse than going home with a donut! The more people to weigh fish, the better the tournament. Remember, happy anglers keep coming back!

As for the boater (fork length) and the non-boater (tip length), I do not like that rule at all. I'd hate to be catching 23's and 24's all day while my non-boater was bagging out on them...we just wouldn't be sharing in the fun. Or what if a boater is sitting on a school of 23-24's and takes off after ten minutes because there is nothing bigger there, I can't imagine too many non-boaters would be real happy with that. Whatever the rule, it should stay the same for both parties.

And Yep, the Tweed lived up to it's reputation and is still chocker block full of squeekers!!!

muzz
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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by muzz » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:12 pm

Fork length is the only way to be accurate imo, tip length is open to variations.
Agree with hooked[quote="HookedWA"]My view is why mess with a proven failsafe method of measuring bream on the stick.As many have eluded to there are far to many variations when measuring over all fish length.The old "swallow tailing" of fish was common practise in WA when events were run to over all size of fish...and yes before anyone gets upset in the WA ranks l saw people doing it on my boat.It is so much quicker and less stressful for a bream to be measured to the fork whilst on a boat in rough conditions too...welfare of catch should be put at the top of everyones list in imo.
The fact that some people are getting deflated fishing ego's in competition is not of a concern...the dreaded donut catches us all at times.Just buck up and get on with trying to catch your next bag of fish.Up the size to 24cm fork length and sort the men from the mice or woman for that matter.
Bags of fish would still be achievable and just heighten the importance of making every cast count.WA is currently using the 25cm fork rule to measure fish and as yet lve yet to hear anyone sobbing about lack of fish...lots of rats but no sobbing.Trial or no trial l just see this as the best way to measure fish.
JMO anyways.

Steve[/quote]

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Matt Fraser » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:00 pm

I prefer a fork length measurement, but I'll go with whatever, as long as it is CONSISTANT, and over both sessions!

Last year on the Tweed there was no ABT official checking and measuring fish at the tubs. Marcel would check the odd one on stage, but there were some small fish being weighed.....especially on day two.

At a place like the Tweed, there are always heaps of borderline cases, that some anglers try and sneak through.

Whatever the measurement is, the definiton has to black and white, with no grey areas.

Matt

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by chick_magnet_0001 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:08 pm

i agree with matt but id also like to see a penalty system in place for people being caught with undersize ABT fish

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by eddystone » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:34 am

Fork length for me all the way...

Why isn't the tweed drop off as a tournament venue? Sounds like it causes more hassles than its worth!

Pat

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by tomdeer » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:40 pm

I haven't fished the Tweed so I can't comment on that system, looking forward to it this July.

I feel that its better to use fork length, for boaters and non-boaters.

Consistency is the key, I feel. If you have a rule for the Tweed then it should be the rule right across the country, and as the rest of the country doesn't have a problem with fork length I think the Tweed should conform with the rest of the country. Not the other way around.

I'm not sure that anglers catching fish = happy anglers. The ABT is about tournament fishing, if you want a bag of fish go fishing mid week when there aren't too many anglers about.

Is there any evidence (research) to show that guys who get a donut are not happy and then don't enter again? Or is it that repeat tournament appearances is independent of catch rates? I have my views, but no evidence.

On the issue of penalties for undersized fish, this has been raised before.

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Macka_d » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:24 pm

Since we are having the measuring fish debate, I might as well bring up what I see as a major issue with fish measuring at tournaments, which in turn leads to differences in who wins and who loses. Is a legal fish a fish that measures 23cm to the fork of the tail, measured from the teeth of the bream when rammed into the end of a ruler leaving tooth marks on the plastic, or in fact as I'd expect a fisheries officer would do, measured from the un-pressed lips of the bream. Kinda sounds stupid, but there's a few milimeters in it, and anyone who's fished a comp would know every now and then a fish comes along that is that close. So what I'm suggesting is I'd like to see a uniform way of measuring a fish at weigh in that cannot be influenced by who is measuring the fish on the day.

Solution one would be have the person measuring the fish to make every effort to find the shortest possible length of the
fish, and use that as the length.. So maybe that means a few less fish get weighed, but at least it's fair. Ram the fish into the ruler, and if you can see that some part of that fork (or all of the tip as the new rules may state) does not make the legal size, then throw the fish back.
Solution two could be get a piece of big pipe, cut it in half, draw the necessary measurements on it for legal length, glue the pipe to a frame that suspends it on an angle, say 45 degrees, to ensure the fish slides to the end ( under it's own weight, without the weigh master braking his back trying to push the fish down) and use it's fork or tail length based on this. Using the fishes own weight to position it on the ruler will provide some consistency as to where on the fish's mouth the fish is measured from. Id prefer option one personally as it really can't be misinterpreted and will produce the same result twice.
So I guess what i'm saying is it would be nice to eliminate human factors. There can be a big difference between the length of a fish when you go in thinking 'what's the longest I can make this fish, and can I make it look legal' and 'what's the smallest length I can make this fish look, and can I make this dude look like a chump in front of this crowd and tell him it's not legal'

what's everyones thoughts?

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Wishey » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:56 am

All the Gamma rounds have been 23cm to the fork in NSW, no problems as far as I know,,,,I would rather a fork measurement.

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Wishey » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:00 am

As far as I know all the Gama rounds have been 23 to the fork, and I dont think there has been too many problems with bream making the legal tip length in NSW of 25cm. I would prefer a fork measurment.

Wishey

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Macka_d » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:46 am

We need a consistent way of measuring the length of a fish from the nose end... Depends on who measures the fish as to how long it is, which leaves us not knowing whether our fish will be deemed legal or not when we bring it up to the weigh in. Ive had fish pushed so far up the ruler the end of the rulers almost been snapped off, and its left tooth marks in the plastic, but ive also had the official try his best to make the fish legal, allowing the lips of the bream to be uncompressed, which adds a good 3 or4mm onto the length of the fish. This can make a massive difference, especially in an event like the Tweed which has many fish of that sorta length. You cant say changing the way we measure fish wont make a difference at the top of the field, as people at the top of the field often dont have 5 large fish, there is commonly small fish in the bag also, or in the case of multiple day events, often there will be a day where a person struggles to catch 5, and allowing or disallowing a barely legal fish will make all the difference.

Personally Id like to see all fish measured when HARD pushed against the end of the ruler, as surely this is the only consistent way to measure a fish, which could be reproduced not only by the same person, but also by different people should that occur. If we did it that way, it would avoid unnecessary rejections of fish on the presentation stage, as all competitors will know before they go up whether it will be allowed or not. I dont think you can blame someone for leaving a fish in the bag thats a bit iffy with the current way of measuring fish, as to be honest, we have no idea how you will be measuring fish on the day, which sucks.
If the measurer does everything he can to make the fish as small as possible, and its still legal, either by fork or tail length, then allow the fish. If it can be made to be undersize when pushed hard against the ruler, disallow the fish. Turning the fish over to try and make it look legal etc only leads to inconsistencies depending on who the weigh in guy is, and who the competitor is.

Thats my 2 cents worth anyway. Im for fork length by the way.

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by peter herbst » Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:22 pm

24fork. Keep the same method of measuring fish.

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by UdlMan » Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:36 am

How would it be if there is an 'Official Measuring Ruler' that will be used to measure fish on the day. Allow anyone who wants to check their ruler against the 'Official Measuring Ruler' to do so and that way they could see if their ruler is out in any way. Maybe also make it that only hard measures be allowed for bream and bass, ie, no Brag mats etc.


Brad.

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Wishey » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:47 pm

I'm happy to run a course on how to measure fish for the ABT guys.

I was a weighin steward for 15 years during my 25 years of club fishing.I measured fish presented at weighins from Divisional titles, State Titles and Australian Titles. I have probably measured over 10,000 fish during my time club fishing. From memory I think I might have knocked back Britto on a couple of occasions, but he also knew I measured every fish the same way every time.

Macka d is right, there should be a consistent procedure, I like the idea of the pipe on an angle that lets the weight of the fish push up to the end of the measuring stick. I still believe you should be allowed to turn the fish over, to see if it hits the legal length. Just like humans not all fish are made the same.....

just a thought

Wishey

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by DanFrost » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:55 am

Would have to agree with all the blokes who argued strongly to keep it to the fork , it is an uncomplicated and fair way to measure which will cause less arguments . Having boaters and non boaters measuring different ways does not sound good to me , imagine if you and your non boater hit a school of fish just bordering legal , and he could weigh in his bag of 5 and the boater had to throw his back as they were just under.
Dan

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Gillie » Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:00 pm

Simplicity is the key,just leave things how they are,25cm fork length is still a small fish, so lets not see even smaller fish brought back to the scales! As a few have said, it is rather deflating to return to the weigh in without your five or even worse without a fish,but it happens to us all at some stage and as they say,"what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger" so just get on with it and bring five home next round. Tip length is way too dodgy! and will definitely result in more disgruntled anglers. The fork is the fork,you can't scissor tail the fork. My vote is leave whats well enough alone! cheers Gillie

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Simon Goldsmith » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:42 pm

Guys we are going to trial the new measuring system at the Tweed round. Remember this is just a trial, it'll give us the information we need to determine whether it's a system that's worthy of using in all events. Have a trial is a better option than adopting it across the board untested.

We'll run all anglers through the measuring process at the briefing so everyone is briefed on how we'll do it. In the meantime here's the process in written form:

* bream mouth closed with nose touching edge of ruler
* tail fork lobes folded down to horizontal
* fish measure to longest tail lobe

So the regs for the trial are:
* 26 cm tip length
* fish measuring under 25cm tip length will result in whole bag being DQ'd (25cm is the state legal length and any fish under this size is illegal)
Regards,

Simon Goldsmith
ABT Tournament Director
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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by UdlMan » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:18 pm

[quote="Simon Goldsmith"]Guys we are going to trial the new measuring system at the Tweed round. Remember this is just a trial, it'll give us the information we need to determine whether it's a system that's worthy of using in all events. Have a trial is a better option than adopting it across the board untested.

We'll run all anglers through the measuring process at the briefing so everyone is briefed on how we'll do it. In the meantime here's the process in written form:

* bream mouth closed with nose touching edge of ruler
* tail fork lobes folded down to horizontal
* fish measure to longest tail lobe

So the regs for the trial are:
* 26 cm tip length
* fish measuring under 25cm tip length will result in whole bag being DQ'd (25cm is the state legal length and any fish under this size is illegal)[/quote]

How will that go for fish that have been fin clipped??

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Wazza » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:21 am

Will this method meet NSW fisheries regulations? The diagram on their website does not show the tail lobes being folded together, but rather a flattened tail with measurement to the longest tip.....

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/fisheries/rec ... ze/measure

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Simon Goldsmith » Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:11 pm

Wazza we've spoken to the guys from Fisheries and they have informed us that they do infact measure folding the tail down.

Speaking to Anthony Wishey this morning and he informed me that the method we're going to use is the same as what they use to use in the old-school kill and measure events. He was a weighmaster in his former life so he knows his stuff.
Regards,

Simon Goldsmith
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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by chick_magnet_0001 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:09 pm

having fished the tweed this weekend i found the new measuring system trial a real goer, what really made this work and should be put into play at every tournament was Simon's checking of pretty much every fish in your bag, not just the ones marcel normaly looks at up on stage when you have a little chat to him
top stuff ABT

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Dodgyback » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:37 pm

You're right chick, with Simon checking every fish in a basket ,it only took a matter of moments.

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Tea Bag » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:00 am

What is so complicated in measuring fish to the tip. It's how all states fisheries officers have been doing it for ever and it was how we all did before ABT came along. ITs not hard people and there is no reason for descrepancies. Its measured to the end of the tip, How hard can it be. As long as the same person does it for the 2 or 3 days of the comp where the problem.

ling
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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by ling » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:39 am

So how did the trial go ?

ling
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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by ling » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:47 am

So how did the trial go ? Is it a yes or no ?

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Re: New Measuring System for BREAM Events

Post by Lazzylure » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:01 am

We ran with the new measuring rule for the first time in the SABT classic on the weekend and it was no issues at all for anyone. I must admit I was a bit confused when I first read this post but after Tom explained it at the briefing ......
* bream mouth closed with nose touching edge of ruler
* tail fork lobes folded down to horizontal
* fish measure to longest tail lobe
.......it was a piece of cake. I like the move actually.

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